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The_Führer
29th-June-2008, 11:48 AM
MEYRIN, Switzerland - The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5962/capt0a3a7a4006084d75a20rd3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?

Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN — some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.

"If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.

The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.

The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.

Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.

The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.

The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions — far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.

The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million — long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.

By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.

Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."

One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.

On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.

The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.

In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.

And so far, Earth has survived.

"The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.

Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.

Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes — collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.

But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.

Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field — and eventually threaten the planet.

Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.

As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.

When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.

Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets — to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.

The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.

Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.

Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.

The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.

"There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.

Yahoo!

Memento Mori
29th-June-2008, 11:52 AM
tl;dr

But I've read discussion about this on another forum. This isn't the world's first particle accelerator, and everything will be fine.

shifted
29th-June-2008, 01:39 PM
old news, this was meant to turn on in june. well, at least there is nothing we (the rest of the earth's population) can do to change the minds of the few and numbered in this task, but either way, it will be a great finding if it does find something.

what are the "dimensions"?

1. length
2. length and breadth
3. length, depth and height
4. time

any others?

Rudolf
29th-June-2008, 11:22 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension#By_number_of_dimensions

Zero dimensions:
Point
Zero-dimensional space

One dimension:
Line

Two dimensions:
2D geometric models
2D computer graphics

Three dimensions
3D computer graphics
3-D films and video
Stereoscopy (3-D imaging)

Four dimensions:
Time (4th dimension)
Fourth spatial dimension
Tesseract (four dimensional shapes)

Five dimensions:
Kaluza-Klein theory
Fifth dimension
Seventh dimension

Ten, eleven or twenty-six dimensions:
String theory
M-theory
Calabi-Yau spaces

Infinitely many dimensions:
Hilbert space

[edit] Other
Degrees of freedom
Dimension (data warehouse) and dimension tables
Hyperspace (disambiguation page)

Rudolf
29th-June-2008, 11:30 PM
Scientists: Nothing to fear from atom-smasher

Unless, this guy is their safety inspector :D

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9729/homer7685685c644c4rj5.jpg

shifted
30th-June-2008, 01:15 AM
lol nice

but Rudolf, why do they jump straight from 5 to 7, and skip out a few others as well? whats the point in that?

Rudolf
30th-June-2008, 02:41 AM
Not being a physicist, here are some posted thoughts found on the net. :) My guess is they think they exist, but they are yet to be defined as to what they may be.

Think of 0 (zero) dimension as a dot. It has no length, width, or height. (Yes I know, technically you can measure a dot, but think of it as infinately small, if that's possible or maybe think of it as an invisible dot)

Think of 1 Dimension as a line. Infinately long, both ways.

Think of 2 Dimensions as a Square. It has Length and Width. So if you lived in 2 dimensions you'd be really, really flat.

Think of 3 Dimensions as a Cube. Length, Width and Height. You have some shape. The world you see around you is 3D.

Think of 4 Dimension as Time added to 3D. With time you can estimate when and where a particular 3D object will be or is.

Theoretically there are more than 4 dimensions. The exact numbers of dimensions are still under study but they seem to think there are at least ten to twelve.

Big!
30th-June-2008, 04:02 AM
Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.

My computer is actually part of that network. Yours could be too if you participated in the LHC@Home project through BOINC.

Big!

Big!
30th-June-2008, 04:07 AM
old news, this was meant to turn on in june. well, at least there is nothing we (the rest of the earth's population) can do to change the minds of the few and numbered in this task, but either way, it will be a great finding if it does find something.

what are the "dimensions"?

1. length
2. length and breadth
3. length, depth and height
4. time

any others?

X, Y, Z, and Time are the main four.

Is temperature a dimension? I don't recall. I know we handled up to six or seven dimensions in my Calculus 3 class.

Big!

Jop
10th-September-2008, 11:21 PM
Thought I just bump this since it's been turned on now. Curious to see what happens in October when they're suppose to do their experiments. Also, can't wait to see how the Very Large and Super Collider be doing in the future.

Rudolf
12th-September-2008, 01:49 AM
So, are we all going to disappear into a black hole of our own creation?

Do I bother to pay the mortgage this month.

or

Do I blow it all on wine, women and song. :)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/flipper0828/Thanksgiving/up_and_down.gif

lolcakes
31st-October-2008, 08:43 AM
first collision's already happened and we're still here. lol

but string theory is a bit messy imho... too many dimensions

shifted
31st-October-2008, 09:15 AM
So, are we all going to disappear into a black hole of our own creation?

Do I bother to pay the mortgage this month.

or

Do I blow it all on wine, women and song. :)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/flipper0828/Thanksgiving/up_and_down.gif

Too bad you got a Mrs huh, that is 1/3 less fun. :p lol

And if the fourth dimension is Time, I wonder what other dimensions are actually possible.

Rudolf
1st-November-2008, 07:52 PM
Well there's time for a pizza..

Time for a movie..

Time for a drink...

Time for some loving...

Nolan
5th-August-2009, 09:38 PM
Scientists: Nothing to fear from atom-smasher

Unless, this guy is their safety inspector :D

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9729/homer7685685c644c4rj5.jpg

hahahah, you just made my day rudi

Is this the particle collider that is supposed to be in the European mountains (Jura Mountain, maybe?) Cause I heard my friend talking about it one time. Is this the same one? cause he seems to believe its in relevance to 2012.

Rudolf
5th-August-2009, 10:06 PM
That's the one, you have the nut case group, those are the one's who believe this experiment will create a black hole and swallow the Earth, and then you have the other group of real scientists who see this as a wonderful scientific tool that will increase our knowledge in various scientific disciplines.

Nolan
5th-August-2009, 10:50 PM
exactly!
I don't believe this will further contribute into the 2012 "theory", only advance us in the field of science and further our understanding. I'm curious as to what findings might occur.

Rudolf
5th-August-2009, 10:58 PM
I think their first major experiment will be to try an increase the fizz in soft drinks :)

This has plagued soft drink manufactures for years, Coke nearly cracked it from a formula stolen from Pepsi.

The scientists at Coke discovered if they could create a mini black hole in the bottom of the bottle, they could increase the fizz factor by four.

Nolan
5th-August-2009, 11:41 PM
Or possibly make a never ending can of soda by using the mini black hole...! :p

xeno6919
5th-August-2009, 11:53 PM
Do you mean 2012 instead of 2010

Nolan
5th-August-2009, 11:56 PM
Do you mean 2012 instead of 2010

oh darnit, yeah i meant to type that hahah.
Good catch!

xeno6919
6th-August-2009, 01:24 AM
Haha no prob, I just didn't know if maybe there was another so called end of the world supposed to happen like next year or something, I was frightened :-P

Cacteur
9th-August-2009, 10:42 AM
No no.... it's going to happen in 1984..... or is it 12.00pm on the 31st December 1999..... :D

The 23rd of December, 2012 is the end of the current cycle of the Mesoamerican, (or Mayan) calendar, which began on the 13th of August 3114 BCE. As I understand it, most of the other indications of it being 'doomsday' are highly questionable. Linking Nostradamus' predictions to the date, suggesting it will herald a reversal in the earths magnetic field and so on.

To me, if you understand the universe, it's a bloody miracle we are still here anyway. The fact that we haven't been slapped by a giant hunk of cosmic crap yet is amazing. Whatever happens happens I reckon. If some demented US President pushes the switch, or we get knocked over by a meteor, or Jesus rides back swinging his cleansing sword across the planet, frankly, I don't give a fuck. I've had a ball. Bring it on. http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq122/Cacteur/Smilies/az.gif

nickh155
10th-August-2009, 12:48 PM
I doubt we'll ever get hit by a meteor, there are cosmic powers out there in guidance of our survival i'm willing to bet.

but apparently the atom smasher will be turned on at a future date (November) in anticipation of the 8,970 physicists working on it. so right now it hasn't smashed a single atom.

Nolan
10th-August-2009, 07:34 PM
If some demented US President pushes the switch, or we get knocked over by a meteor, or Jesus rides back swinging his cleansing sword across the planet, frankly, I don't give a fuck. I've had a ball. Bring it on.

hahahaha :D
good one mate, that's a great way to look at it.

what happens, happens.
thats when the quote "life every day as if it were your last" comes in.
have fun now

Cacteur
11th-August-2009, 05:51 AM
I doubt we'll ever get hit by a meteor, there are cosmic powers out there in guidance of our survival i'm willing to bet.....

Oh maaaate! Don't put your house on it bro.... mind you, if you're wrong you'll lose that anyway.... yeeeah, go for it. Why not? Hehehehe :evil2:

.........thats when the quote "life every day as if it were your last" comes in.
have fun now

"Dream like you'll live forever, live like you'll die tomorrow." That's my motto. :D

Rudolf
11th-August-2009, 06:02 AM
I doubt we'll ever get hit by a meteor, there are cosmic powers out there in guidance of our survival i'm willing to bet.

:lmao:

Naturally, these same cosmic powers will smite those who don't follow the same religion as i do ::rockthrow:

Nolan
11th-August-2009, 07:42 AM
"Dream like you'll live forever, live like you'll die tomorrow." That's my motto. :D

Ah nice!
thats even better haha