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mrnicksta
21st-March-2008, 09:49 AM
for those that don't know Gödel is a famous mathematician who came up with this theorem (that has been proved, this is not mere speculation) called, as the title suggests, the incompleteness theorem.

to begin, it might be useful to point out it is reminiscent of the classic Epimenides Paradox: "I am lying.”

The above paradox is neither provably true nor provably untrue, as is the nature of paradox.

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem takes this notion one step further by stating (and proving) that things fall into 4 mutually exclusive categories:

provably true - quite obvious, we know there are truths we can prove
provably untrue - again quite obvious, there are things which we can prove to be untrue quite easily
unprovably true
unprovably untrue


the last two conjure some deep questions though. if there are things which are unprovably true, then the question begs to be asked is the pursuit of knowledge in some cases completely futile? taking into account Gödel's Theorem, the question of the existence of God may never bear any fruits as it probably falls into the last two categories, making it imposible to prove to true or untrue.

WE CAN NEVER KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH!

now this sounds quite ridiculous and it takes a lot of time to get your head around, but it is 100% true (ironic that the Incompleteness Theorem falls in the provably true section of the Incompleteness Theorem itself!), for the benfit of those that doubt it's truth i have included an informal proof:


Someone introduces Gödel to a machine that is supposed to be a Universal Truth Machine (UTM), capable of correctly answering any question at all.
Gödel asks for the program and the circuit design of the UTM. The program may be complicated, but it can only be finitely long. Call the program P(UTM) for Program of the Universal Truth Machine.
Gödel writes out the following sentence: "The machine constructed on the basis of the program P(UTM) will never say that this sentence is true." Call this sentence G for Gödel. Note that G is equivalent to: "UTM will never say G is true.”
Now Gödel asks UTM whether G is true or not.
(a) If UTM says G is true, then "UTM will never say G is true" is false.
(b) If "UTM will never say G is true" is false, then G is false (since G = "UTM will never say G is true”).


So if UTM says G is true, then G is in fact false, and UTM has made a false statement. So UTM will never say that G is true, since UTM makes only true statements!

this is of course an informal proof and Gödel's actual mathematical proof is a lot longer and complex!

for those who have been interested in what i have discussed here, you should check the magnificent book "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter - it is one of the most incredibly intelligent books, that is so broad in it coverage (art, music physics, language, maths, biology, unbelievably clever dialogues), depth and clarity it will have you amazed with every page (at least i have been as i am reading through it). best yet, despite it's broad range of topics it is not a jumble or randomness, it is very focused with it's point and everything is chosen very carefully to fit in with that point.

Big!
23rd-March-2008, 04:34 PM
Interesting.

anna karina
23rd-March-2008, 06:37 PM
is unprovably a word. or was it is a mispelling of unprobably?? and so was provably or was this also a mispelling????
oh god not another paradox

Rudolf
23rd-March-2008, 08:15 PM
Adverb - provably

In an obvious and provable manner

Big!
24th-March-2008, 12:19 AM
Definitions of provably on the Web:

* demonstrably: in an obvious and provable manner; "his documentary sources are demonstrably wrong"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

mrnicksta
24th-March-2008, 01:33 PM
lol i had to check myself before using the word (un)provably, it looked as though it was spelt wrong, but apparently not. anyways, the whole point of it is that there are things that are unproVable, and never will be otherwise

c4m
1st-April-2008, 04:26 AM
Quite thought-provoking. Thanks.

mrnicksta
1st-April-2008, 08:16 PM
should check out the book i mentioned if you liked what i wrote!

shifted
2nd-April-2008, 01:21 PM
thought provoking, but im so confused :S lol

mrnicksta
8th-April-2008, 09:42 PM
lol why are you confused?

shifted
9th-April-2008, 12:01 AM
lost me with the proof there, but i think before when i first read it i just wasnt paying enough attention to a few things lol

mrnicksta
9th-April-2008, 01:21 AM
well the full proof is completely beyond mine and probably anyone else on this forum's comprehension (unless we got a few mathematics scholars hiding in the woodwork).

as i tried to explain, the book i mentioned devotes it's whole self to explaining the Theorem, and it's a large book (900 pages or so), so any further detail would be overkill (cos it'd take too long, and i'd probs get it wrong!)

shifted
9th-April-2008, 08:25 AM
900 pages? what stuff does he explain in 900 pages? lol

it must be a damn long proof. haha

Rudolf
9th-April-2008, 09:04 AM
Kenny's Overview of Hofstadter's Explanation of Gödel's Theorem

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/papers/godel.html

mrnicksta
9th-April-2008, 10:34 AM
900 pages? what stuff does he explain in 900 pages? lol

it must be a damn long proof. haha

well, it's not entirely devoted to the proof because he does work around the topic a little. but it covers eveerything from physics to biology to philosophy to art to music to artificial intelligence to clever dialogues between achilles and a tortoise, and relates all these to his point - it's amazing, though a hefty read.

shifted
10th-April-2008, 12:24 AM
Kenny's Overview of Hofstadter's Explanation of Gödel's Theorem

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/papers/godel.html

whos kenny? :P jj will have a read, and mrnicksta, he talks to tortoises? nice, people back then, would be interesting to see..lol

mrnicksta
10th-April-2008, 01:59 AM
yeah! every chapter starts out with one of these dialogus -they're just silly scenarios, on a superficial level, where the tortoise is usually explaining somethin to the slightly dim witted achiles. but on a deeper level the author somehow manages to turn these dialogues into an analogy of what is about to be covered in the following chapter.

all i can say is that i've never been so impressed by any kind of literature. wish i had more time at the moment to seriously read a lot more of the book! i'm nowhere near finishing it yet!

Rudolf
10th-April-2008, 02:17 AM
whos kenny? :P jj will have a read, and mrnicksta, he talks to tortoises? nice, people back then, would be interesting to see..lol


Kenny is

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/home.html