The Matrix

[Big!]

A. Dream Skepticism

The Matrix raises many familiar philosophical problems in such fascinating new ways that , in a surprising reversal, students all over the country are assigning it to their philosophy professors. Having done our homework, we'd like to explore two questions raised in Christopher Grau's three essays on the film. Grau points out that The Matrix dramatizes Rene Descartes' worry that, since all we ever experience is our own inner mental states, we might , for all we could tell, be living in an illusion created by a malicious demon. In that case most of our beliefs about reality would be false. That leads Grau to question the rationality of Cypher's choice to live in an illusory world of pleasant private experiences, rather than facing painful reality.

We think that The Matrix 's account of our situation is even more disturbing than these options suggest. The Matrix is a vivid illustration of Descartes' additional mind blowing claim that we could never be in direct touch with the real world (if there is one) because we are, in fact, all brains in vats. So in choosing to return from the "real world" to the Matrix world, Cypher is just choosing between two systematic sets of appearances. To counter these disturbing ideas we have to rethink what we mean by experience, illusion, and our contact with the real world. Only then will we be in a position to take up Grau's question as to why we feel it is somehow morally better to face the truth than to live in an illusory world that makes us feel good.


Source: The Philosophy of the Matrix (http://onwardoverland.com/matrix/philosophy.html#dream)

Would you rather live in a real world full of pain and hardship or a world of illusion where you are led to believe you are happy?

Big!

[V-Dogg]

"Let truth and honor always guide you."

That's part of the code I live by. A fake world made up of illusions would be quite the lie. I would choose to live in the real world. No matter how hard it might be. When you come right down to it, it's a matter of truly living or simply living in a fake place that doesn't really exist (basically living within a lie).

As for how hard or awful it might be... Well, there's a reason they say "The truth hurts."

[c4m]

Hmm. I think that I would rather be happy. It's a broad question, since reality could be anything. However, if we apply "The Matrix", and it's differences between reality and the illusion, then I'd probably live in the Matrix, trying to learn all the powers Neo obtains. Or did they come with being "The One"? It's been a while since I saw those. Now I'm compelled to see the first one again.

[V-Dogg]

Hmm. I think that I would rather be happy. It's a broad question, since reality could be anything. However, if we apply "The Matrix", and it's differences between reality and the illusion, then I'd probably live in the Matrix, trying to learn all the powers Neo obtains. Or did they come with being "The One"? It's been a while since I saw those. Now I'm compelled to see the first one again.
Neo was able to fly and move faster than the others could because he was The One. The enhanced jumping, increased speed (and such) were average for the others. However, remember that in order to obtain such things they had to first leave The Matrix. Otherwise I doubt their brains would accept reality, thus they would have refused to believe they weren't already in the real world.

[c4m]

Ahh, well I'd learn all that cool stuff. In "I'd probably live in the Matrix", I meant live their but obviously check out the real side, whatever the hell they called it. Curiosity wouldn't let me stay in the Matrix. I would have to learn what reality is.
Really, though, how would you know that it was in fact real? If the Matrix could be made, then they could have created what Morphius, Neo, and everyone else who got "woken up", believed was reality just as easily.
Life is about being happy, for me. If I'm not enjoying it, why the hell should I stay? Unless it's to fight to make sure others are happy, in which case I imagine there would be some sort of feeling of fulfillment anyway. If I was going to live for ~80 years, in the illusion or in reality, I would take the happy illusion, because in the end it won't matter. My friend knows someone who was dead for four minutes, and he said there was no tunnel with light at the end, etc. It was just like being asleep, apparently, so I don't think I'll take any chances where I could potentially not enjoy my life. You could argue that if you aren't actually going to die properly, you know, where you don't come back, then you won't experience any of the tunnels with lights at the end sort of things, because "God", the almighty whatever, or the force of nature is all knowing, therefore not putting you through the experience.

[V-Dogg]

True about the possibility of being woken up another illusion.

In the end, if it won't matter within an illusion then that only reinforces what I said about choosing reality. I want meaning to my life. Even if it's the most insignificant meaning in history. It's extremely difficult to explain why though...

I've heard rumors of some people dying, but then coming back after a few minutes and saying that they had a choice on whether or not to come back. Something interesting is that in all of these rumors everyone had said they regretted coming back.

[c4m]

Damn, this section may very well make this a better forum than AB. I like small forums.

Interesting. In the last Harry Potter, he was faced with that choice, and chose to come back and kill Voldemort, saving everyone from lives of misery. I... need... bed... sleep... Thanks for the thought provoking discussion, Big! and V-Dogg.

[V-Dogg]

Yeah, the ending to that book was great. Personally I don't think that it was the kind of choice that we all think of. I think that by not fighting he unknowingly made the choice to come back. Instead of fighting and being killed he chose to sacrifice himself, which was far greater choice than fighting. Of course, being one of the horcruxes, technically he had to die anyway. But I think that how one dies is just as important as the fact that one will inevitably die. I wonder if Harry truly died, or if dying was simply a kind of test to see what kind of person he was. However this is just a thought.

And no problem about the discussion. :)

[Big!]

B. Brain-in-a-Vat Skepticism

Before breaking out of the Matrix, Neo's life was not what he thought it was. It was a lie. Morpheus described it as a "dreamworld," but unlike a dream, this world was not the creation of Neo's mind. The truth is more sinister: the world was a creation of the artificially intelligent computers that have taken over the Earth and have subjugated mankind in the process. These creatures have fed Neo a simulation that he couldn't possibly help but take as the real thing. What's worse, it isn't clear how any of us can know with certainty that we are not in a position similar to Neo before his "rebirth." Our ordinary confidence in our ability to reason and our natural tendency to trust the deliverances of our senses can both come to seem rather naive once we confront this possibility of deception.

A viewer of The Matrix is naturally led to wonder: how do I know I am not in the Matrix? How do I know for sure that my world is not also a sophisticated charade, put forward by some super-human intelligence in such a way that I cannot possibly detect the ruse? The philosopher Rene Descartes suggested a similar worry: the frightening possibility that all of one's experiences might be the result of a powerful outside force, a "malicious demon."

So, as Descartes originally questioned, how can we ever know that we're not a "brain in a vat" sitting on a shelf somewhere with a scientist (God?) poking us with probes to make us think we are experiencing a true reality?

[V-Dogg]

A question to add to the post above: Assuming this is true, and also assuming that someone comes to such a realization, how would they escape? Would simply uncovering the truth awaken them to reality or would there be no escape?

[Big!]

Descartes set out to answer this very question. His strategy was to doubt everything and start with a blank slate and build a foundation of knowledge upon it.



And yet firmly implanted in my mind is the long-standing opinion that there is an omnipotent God who made me the kind of creature that I am. How do I know that he has not brought it about that there is no earth, no sky, no extended thing, no shape, no size, no place, while at the same time ensuring that all these things appear to me to exist just as they do now? What is more, just as I consider that others sometimes go astray in cases where they think they have the most perfect knowledge, how do I know that God has not brought it about that I too go wrong every time I add two and three or count the sides of a square, or in some even simpler matter, if that is imaginable? But perhaps God would not have allowed me to be deceived in this way, since he is said to be supremely good; [...] I will suppose therefore that not God, who is supremely good and the source of truth, but rather some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgment. (Meditations, 15)



Pay special attention to the last sentence in this quote.

[V-Dogg]

Maybe it's the fact that i'm very tired right now (last night I didn't get as much sleep as I usually do), but I fail to to see why the last sentenced should be paid special attention...

[Big!]

He decided to doubt everything. Hence, "I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which [God] has devised to ensnare my judgment." (Meditations, 15)

In the context of The Matrix, replace God with The Architect.

[lucky-tarbox]

I for one would rather live a true life. The matrix really makes you ponder about reality, i mean have you ever thought you could do somthing but couldnt do it? For example flying, you can try and believe that you can fly but theres always a little doupt in the back of your mind, now imagine freeing your mind from all doupt. Im not the brightest bulb on the tree but isnt it true people use only like 10% of your mind, maybe the reason we cant access the other 90% is because we BELIEVE we cant. So i would rather live a real reality even if it was a living hell. p.s. if this dont make sense at all please correct me im very baked right now:p

[c4m]

I'm sure hard drugs could remove all doubt.

[lucky-tarbox]

hmmmmmm good point

[c4m]

And around it goes...
Lots of fun.

[V-Dogg]

I for one would rather live a true life. The matrix really makes you ponder about reality, i mean have you ever thought you could do somthing but couldnt do it? For example flying, you can try and believe that you can fly but theres always a little doupt in the back of your mind, now imagine freeing your mind from all doupt. Im not the brightest bulb on the tree but isnt it true people use only like 10% of your mind, maybe the reason we cant access the other 90% is because we BELIEVE we cant. So i would rather live a real reality even if it was a living hell. p.s. if this dont make sense at all please correct me im very baked right now:p
Yeah, we only use about 10%. And the mind is VERY powerful. I've heard of some Shaolin Monks training their brains so much that they can light their head on fire and not feel a thing. I've also heard of a study somewhere saying that if you truly believe that smoking cigarettes won't give you cancer then you're 80% less likely to get cancer from smoking. But as I said, these are things i've only heard of.

[lucky-tarbox]

But about the subject of hard drugs. Doesnt that put you into a false reality? So all rules kinda change and even without doupt your mind is still fucked and thus your brain cannot function to its full potential.

[Memento Mori]

Talking of what the mind can do, I know of the fact that the brain limits the body, and have witnessed evidence of this. Even the most puny human has the abilty to roll a car clean over. The brain prevents you from doing this though to protect the body from serious injury.

[lucky-tarbox]

and v-dog sorry for interupting you on your last post. I wouldnt be surprised if shoalin monks could do that though. Like the way i see it there more in strong mentally and physically because they train so much, this would make it harder for regular people (such as us) to do that seeing as how weve been kinda corrupted in a way by our society.

[Hippopotamus]

Even the most puny human has the abilty to roll a car clean over. The brain prevents you from doing this though to protect the body from serious injury.

Hmm interesting, never knew that!

[lucky-tarbox]

Well that would be adreniline wouldnt it?

[Big!]

The brain controls adrenaline flow. Didn't Einstein use 90% of his brain? And also, what about that movement of people who believe positive thoughts are enough to achieve anything. Supposedly, these people have become rich just by thinking positively about it everyday. It would seem that if you think about something long enough, you'll figure out a way to make it a reality. I'm not sure that thinking about something alone can accomplish much of anything. At some point you have to take action.

This thread has taken some interesting turns.

Big!

[Memento Mori]

What about Qi?

[lucky-tarbox]

i thought adreniline was controlled by the heart and pain receptors?

[Big!]

According to WebMD.com, adrenaline is "the neurotransmitter of the adrenal gland that is secreted in moments of crisis. It stimulates the heart to beat faster and work harder, increases the flow of blood to the muscles, causes an increased alertness of mind, and produces other changes to prepare the body to meet an emergency." And according to Nature.com, the adrenal gland is "[a] gland located on top of the kidney that produces hormones that regulate aspects of physiology, such as the heart rate and blood pressure." Yet, aren't all organs controlled by the brain. If the brain doesn't tell the adrenal glands to produce adrenaline, then they don't.

As for Qi, elaborate. I googled it and this is what I came up with: "in Eastern philosophies, the energy that connects and animates everything in the universe; includes both individual qi (personal life force) and universal qi, which are coextensive through the practice of mind‑body disciplines, such as traditional meditation, aikido, and tai chi" (www.coss.com.au/glossary.htm). Is this what you are referring to?

Big!

[ThE WiLLieST]

The brain controls adrenaline flow. Didn't Einstein use 90% of his brain? And also, what about that movement of people who believe positive thoughts are enough to achieve anything. Supposedly, these people have become rich just by thinking positively about it everyday. It would seem that if you think about something long enough, you'll figure out a way to make it a reality. I'm not sure that thinking about something alone can accomplish much of anything. At some point you have to take action.

This thread has taken some interesting turns.

Big!

so in essence your saying the majority of ppl, world wide, are simply not thinking hard enough, thus their less than opulent life styles...hmmm

[Big!]

Opulent lifestyles aside, I don't necessarily believe positive thought alone leads to wealth, or even that wealth should be the goal which a person strives towards. Yet, if people thought more about the problems of the world "AND" translated the outcome of that thought into meaningful action, would the world not be a better place?

Big!

[lucky-tarbox]

thanks i learned somthing today:P

[Big!]

Back to the original question. Can the human mind really be led to believe it is happy in a world of illusion such as that of The Matrix, or would you feel as though something is missing, namely the truth, deep in your subconscious? And if you subconsciously feel like something is missing, can you truly be happy?

Definitions of happiness on the Web:

1. state of well-being characterized by emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy
2. emotions experienced when in a state of well-being
Princeton (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)

1. Happiness is an emotional or affective state that is characterized by feelings of enjoyment and satisfaction. As a state and a subject, it has been pursued and commented on extensively throughout world history. This reflects the universal importance that humans place on happiness.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness)