who's better lyrically nas or eminem?

[Kenshi]

im talking about older eminem, or when eminem tries.

they are both mainstream and both are amazing MC's, i think they are the best in the mainstream.

who do you think is better lyrically?

[kenz]

in their respective pirme, i would have to go with nas, eminem is very inward looking, talking about himself and his problems, nas is outward looking, talking about societies ills and social issues.....
which is more my cup of tea. tho both were undeniable in their prime, nas jus takes it for me, i think illmatic is a must own, for ALL people not jus hip hop fans.... whearas i couldnt say the same for eminems albums tbh

[shifted]

Good view mega. :)

I would say Eminem though, he has the ability and rawness to blast anything and anyone on the mic that pisses him off.

[Kenshi]

yeah mega it seems as tho your just saying who you think is better overall. im talking about just lyrically. who is better at rhyming, who's got the more skills?

[kenz]

nas, i dont really think eminem was ever that good, he had a good back story and could raise a smile with his lyrics, backed by dre beats, he was very gimmicky

[Kenshi]

he was definitely gimmicky but it made him sell records, with out selling out, until later.

but yeah i think eminem is better lyrically. nas doesnt have to much shit where i go crazy and have to rewind it,cant get over it and have to tell everyone about this one line just because its so well written. but eminem does that. example of eminem line that shoes great penmanship "all i see is sissys in magazines smiling/ whatever happened to wildin out and being violent/ what ever happened to catchin a good old fasioned passionate ass whoopin and getting your shoes coat and your hat tooken/"

[Cacteur]

I'd go with Nas too. Eminem is one clever buggar, but he's pretty much a one trick pony. His good stuff is always just about him having a bitch. Nas writes about a huge range of topics, definitely a bigger challenge than just dreaming up more ways to call people faggots.

If you believe the market rules, then Eminem has outsold Nas, just, but I always remember how Jimi Hendrix only ever had one track in the American Top 40, "All Along The Watch Tower", and it only ever made it to #11. :^_^:

PS. I'd back mega on the Illumatic album too.

[shifted]

Nas is great, but for me, Eminem can place wording in a way that makes me want to listen to the track over and over to make sure I got it all.

Nas has some great tracks no doubt, and some great metaphors, but I find nothing special with his word play sometimes. Then again, I never really focused on Nas' music as much as Eminem's & Tupac's.

I might just have to play through the CDs again and see what Nas has to say on his albums. :)

I do like his material though, definitely a must listen to for anyone.

[kenz]

trust me eminem is very basic heres some nas shit off the top of my head

"i dominate break loops, givin mics menstruary cycles"
-bringin the track to life

"no ideas original, theres nothin new under the sun, its never what you do but how its done"
-a nice concept about how nothin is new its about style

or you could listen to eminem talkin about how he wants to "whoop your ass" lol, im not gettin at you kenshi im jus fuckin about

[shifted]

I am gonna see if I can try find something. :p

[Kenshi]

no its cool, i love discussing opinions as long as you dont take shit to heart its all good.

so you think nas is more clever than eminem. but still eminem has got some nice punchlines from his infinite album.i hear from nas and i got it. i heard it once ,and its abosorbed .eminem rhymes and his rhyme scheme makes you rewind and check it out again and absorb everything to make sure you got it.

[Cacteur]

It's kind of a dumb question kenshi. The response is always going to be totally subjective and so dependent on so many unrelated factors. It's a bit like saying "Who's the best rock guitarist" or "Who's the best female singer". You will get as many responses as there are people. :invis:

[shifted]

Nothing wrong with providing an opinion though. :)

[Cacteur]

That's exactly my point shifted. By all means provide your opinion. but that's all it is, a subjective opinion, and ultimately meaningless to anyone but yourself. ;)

[greddie]

nas is a much more insightful individual over eminem. i personally prefer eminems old stuff to listen to over nas. nas latest album wasnt all that, lyrically tho nas is getting stronger, talking about more and more stuff that is relivent to him, his community etc etc.

but you cant deny that this is gold:

I hang with a bunch of hippies
and wacky tobacco planters
Who swallow lit roaches
and light up like jack-o-lanterns
Outsiders baby, and we suing the courts
Cause we're dope as fuck and only get a 2 in the source
They never should've booted me out of reform school
Deformed fool,taking a shit in a warm pool
They threw me out the Ramada Inn
I said it wasn't me, I got a twin (Oh my god its you! Not again!)
It all started when my mother took my bike away
Cause I murdered my guinea pig and stuck him in the microwave
After that, It was straight to the 40 ouncers
Slappin teachers, and jacking off in front of my counselors
Class clown freshman, dressed like Les Nessman
Fuck the next lesson, I'll past the test guessing
And all the other kids said Eminem's a dishead,
He'll never last, the only class he'll pass is phys ed
May be true, till I told this bitch in gym class
That she was too fat to swim laps, she needed Slim Fast (Who Me?)
Yeah bitch you so big you walked into big Tanny's and stepped on Jenny Craig
She picked me up to snap me like a skinny twig
Put me in the headlock, then I thought of my guinea pig
I felt the evilness and started transforming (RARRRR!)
It began storming, I heard a bunch of cheering fans swarming
Grabbed that bitch by her hair
Drag her across the ground
And took her up to the highest diving board and tossed her down
Sorry coach, its too late to tell me stop
While I drop this bitch face down and watch her belly flop

i could have gone for any verse from that whole albun, but this one is like the screensaver for my brain. if im not thinking of anything, im normally got this floating around in there someplace.:badboy:

[greddie]

but im better than both of them :)

[Kenshi]

well i asked the question just because i was wondering what everyone else thought. i wasnt about to call everyone wrong for picking nas, i just wanted to know if people agreed with me or thought nas was better lyrically. its obviously not a question with a strait answer.

sidenote: i love eminem because i feel like one of my own have made it.
"So this is like a full blown attack I’m launching at them
The track is on some battling raps who want some static
Cause I don’t really think that the fact that I’m Slim matters
A plaque of platinum status is whack if I'm not the baddest."

once a underground battle rapper, selling millions. makes me happy

[shifted]

Till I Collapse is the song I listen to when I am angry, or sad or just plain pissed off. Makes me pick my mood right up straight away.

Oh, also when I am drunk, makes me go nuts cos it brings the mood up.

I may not rap, but what the song is about is what does it for me.

[Cacteur]

Don't sweat it kenshi. :D (and shifted)

I've been running into shitloads of over emotional Eminem fan boys lately, (yeah, all lads, funny that.) and I've been in the mood to take the piss. Ignore me.

I got nothing to be smug about really. Back in the day, I would smack blokes in the mouth if they dared to suggest Eric Clapton was the worlds greatest guitarist within earshot. Jimi is/was God, and that is/was a damn fact, not an opinion. :evil2:

Fan is short for fanatic remember, so what else should we expect?

[kenz]

first of all i use to be an eminem fan, back in college we used to get stoned listening to a lot of rap n eminem was one we listened to. mainly infinte & freestyle mixtapes, my bro always had illmatic, but i never understood it, and the drums were too hard for my sweet-pop ears, but back when i was 16 i listened to it wiv my mates n never looked back, i then moved on to klashnekoff, sunz of man, etc

i studied nas lyrics for my english A level course work at that time, there was too much good stuff to comment on
the intricacies of the rhymes schemes, the metaphors, multis, the atmosphere, the soundscape, the pictures painted and the overall vision
aside from that the samples used are poignant i.e. mike jackson "it aint hard to tell"
nas being a jackson 5 fan growin up


i rewound illmatic a ridiculous ammount of times

"I drank Moet with Medusa, give her shotguns in hell
From the spliff that I lift and inhale, it ain't hard to"

[JohnnyBoy08]

I think Eminem is better lyrically then Nas. Listen to some of Eminem's freestyles; he goes hard in them too (Yeah I know some of it is written). In his last freestyle in 1997 Rap Olympics he kills that guy and makes me laugh every time.

Eminem Rap Olympics
"I'm bout to make this mic short curcuit
This beat is wack as fuck, this shit fits you perfect
I got so many ways to diss you that I'm playful with'chyou
I'll let a razor slit you 'til they have to staple stitch you
And everybody in this fuckin' place'll miss you
If you try to turn my facial tissue to a racial issue
Nobody's hearin' you, you're a wack liar
Damn, all you white jokes just backfired"

[Kenshi]

yeah i love that racial issue line.

and i love this

"Windows tinted on my ride when I drive in it
So when I rob a bank, run out and just dive in it
So I'll be disguised in it
And if anybody identifies the guy in it
I'll hide for five minutes
Come back, shoot the eyewitness
Then fire at the private eye hired to pry into my business
Die, bitches"

if you heard that shit, you know the way he pronunciates it is great, and makes it sound awesome putting emphasis on all of the words rhyming with "my"


oh and had to add this shit, one of the all time favs

"talking about i fabricated my past/ hes just aggravated i wont ejaculate in his ass"

[kenz]

"talking about i fabricated my past/ hes just aggravated i wont ejaculate in his ass"

thats exactly what i mean, its so basic, i think eminem is popular cos anyone can understand it, which isnt a bad thing necessarily, i can jus see it for what it is

you have to study nas rhymes which a lot of people dont want to do so they cast it off as inferior

[Kenshi]

its basic, but it is well written. it inspires me to rhyme because he puts words together that you havnt heard put together.

and eminem is popular because of the gimmick. most the people who listen to him dont know his skill and dont know how good he is at rhyming they just like the mainstream and he is in it. they like that " SMACK THAT ALL ON THE FLOOR" shit

and i know nas' rhymes have more deepnees to them. i was talking more who is better at the multies, flow, putting words together and such. and i havnt studied to much nas, but i know this is some lyrical shit.

"i embrace yall with napalm/blowed up, no guts left chest,face gone/"

mega since it seems you listen to a lot of nas, let me hear some nas lines. post em


and i love to study lines, come on, i listen to sage francis.

[kenz]

its basic, but it is well written. it inspires me to rhyme because he puts words together that you havnt heard put together.

and eminem is popular because of the gimmick. most the people who listen to him dont know his skill and dont know how good he is at rhyming they just like the mainstream and he is in it. they like that " SMACK THAT ALL ON THE FLOOR" shit

and i know nas' rhymes have more deepnees to them. i was talking more who is better at the multies, flow, putting words together and such. and i havnt studied to much nas, but i know this is some lyrical shit.

"i embrace yall with napalm/blowed up, no guts left chest,face gone/"

mega since it seems you listen to a lot of nas, let me hear some nas lines. post em


and i love to study lines, come on, i listen to sage francis.


i know what i said sounded bitchy...
that last part, about studying lines, but i wasnt meant to be..........

i should be straight here

and i aint speakin about you here so d/w but.....

i get pissed off wiv all these eminem fags in real life and online...

i know the followin because ive worked it out before, but....
the correlation between hiphops popularity and eminems popularity is evident....
the correlation between hip hop gettin shit and eminem is evident....
and the correlation between this
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8477/homodorkicus.jpg
http://www.lolwigger.com/
and eminem is blatant

so that made me resent eminem in a twisted sort of way
you see what im saying?

as for this
"i embrace yall with napalm/blowed up, no guts left chest,face gone/"
i dont think thats a good line whatsoever tbh lol soz mate i aint bein a fag but ...thats jus filler from ether, it IS nice rhyming tho

heres some nice lines from ether imo
"My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
And now I smile like a proud dad, watching his only son that made it"
"All I did was gave you a style for you to run with"
-these are in reference to how jay-z pretty much wanted to be nas when jay first came on the scene, he sampled nas on his debut and stole his style, nas is basically calling him his son.....a follower.....a number2, whatever

"Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy"
- in reference to jay-z wantin to be biggie and dame dash puffy

"Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas"
-simple wordplay on jayz' ******* rockerfeller


I've been fucked over, left for dead, dissed and forgotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
there is a huge potential throught the track "ether" that he is referencing himself as god aswell, with lines like the above......rakim was "the god" nas is gods son, which in turn is saying hes above jay-z......calling jay judas and saying "i gave you chapters" ((like god)also in refererence to jay stealing his style) is the clearest indication he is calling himself god


you see what i mean?

[J-Do3]

This all pretty much depends on your definition of lyrical. Do you consider lyrical flashy, funny, weird, punchlines, or do you consider lyrical, a persons overall diction, metaphors, vocab etc. Since I consider lyricism the second of the two I have to go with Nas. Even though if you check my CD case I have 3 Eminem CDs (2 of which I actually like), and no Nas CDs.

But Yeah, Nas is the better lyricist.

[Kenshi]

yeah that is what i was hinting at, its good rhyming, nice and rare rhyme scheme.

yeah those are nice nas lines, that is a good song. that is one of the nas cds i have heard more of, including illmatic, it was written and the two newest ones.

[TheHitMan]

Nas.

Period.

[Cacteur]

This whole lyrical contest, has got outta control,
Lines jammed with rhymes that got no soul
Your egos have made you lose sight of the goal
Street sounds to party to. Intellect has no role
Reminds me of what happened to rock n roll
When the solo guitarist took over the role
took away the fun, leaning over his console,
lost in his own world, mind black as coal
Oblivious to the good times he stole
So wake up homies, and party as a whole
Or hiphop, will surely go down the same hole.

Fuck Eminem, fuck Nas, Cacteur is in da house... :D

[ozosborn]

wow man i didnt know u had it in ya

Props Cacteur

[shifted]

man people gotta remember it is just an opinion.

I prefer Eminem's rapping, but I don't got for his commercial shit, I prefer the songs he has with stories, the tales, but none of this "We Made You, Just Lose It" shit.

I am not a wigga, I do not think a rapper/emcee is someone who talks about absolute crap to get radio hits.

A line from KRS One:

Rappers only talk about shit that is illegal/ emcees spit rhymes to uplift their people/peace, love, unity, having fun/these are the lyrics of KRS One.

From the song: Classic [Better Than I've Ever Been] [DJ Premier Remix] Ft. Nas, KanYe West & Rakim.

I love that song.

I love the stories behind the song, none of the bling shit. Eminem had plenty of great stories, shit that made you sit back and think about something for ages, morals and values. Guilty Conscience, Till I Collapse, Stan, Stimulate, The Way I Am, among plenty of others.

Nas, yeah he has some great songs, but sometimes I can't understand the words he says so I gotta rewind and focus, where as Eminem, for me, is free flowing and clear.

I still listen to Nas, his song Ether, Hate Me Now, Hero among others are great songs in my opinion.

At the end of the day, there is no need to result to calling out names and shit, take in the opinion, discuss it, and leave it, your not going to prove someone otherwise over the net.

Though I do understand there are all those "fanboys" out there like the dick in the photo you posted mega, and they piss me off too, but they range across every rapper out there, shit, see how many follow Soulja Boy Tell'Em?? And who the fuck is that anyway? Some kid who can't rap, is barely understandable, and thinks he owns the world? Man, he can get on his knees and suck my dick, if I ever get caught with buying his album, I will kill myself, bring myself back to life, just to kill myself again to make sure I am dead. Wack mofo like him should be shot with the amount of crap he talks about. And KanYe to back him and compare him to Nas? Now that is disrespectful.

Your always gonna have the "fanboys" out there, I am just glad this site has none. :D

[Rudolf]

OMG, Cacteur in da house :)

[Cacteur]

man people gotta remember it is just an opinion.

I prefer Eminem's rapping, but I don't got for his commercial shit, I prefer the songs he has with stories, the tales, but none of this "We Made You, Just Lose It" shit.

I am not a wigga, I do not think a rapper/emcee is someone who talks about absolute crap to get radio hits.

A line from KRS One:



From the song: Classic [Better Than I've Ever Been] [DJ Premier Remix] Ft. Nas, KanYe West & Rakim.

I love that song.

I love the stories behind the song, none of the bling shit. Eminem had plenty of great stories, shit that made you sit back and think about something for ages, morals and values. Guilty Conscience, Till I Collapse, Stan, Stimulate, The Way I Am, among plenty of others.

Nas, yeah he has some great songs, but sometimes I can't understand the words he says so I gotta rewind and focus, where as Eminem, for me, is free flowing and clear.

I still listen to Nas, his song Ether, Hate Me Now, Hero among others are great songs in my opinion.

At the end of the day, there is no need to result to calling out names and shit, take in the opinion, discuss it, and leave it, your not going to prove someone otherwise over the net.

Though I do understand there are all those "fanboys" out there like the dick in the photo you posted mega, and they piss me off too, but they range across every rapper out there, shit, see how many follow Soulja Boy Tell'Em?? And who the fuck is that anyway? Some kid who can't rap, is barely understandable, and thinks he owns the world? Man, he can get on his knees and suck my dick, if I ever get caught with buying his album, I will kill myself, bring myself back to life, just to kill myself again to make sure I am dead. Wack mofo like him should be shot with the amount of crap he talks about. And KanYe to back him and compare him to Nas? Now that is disrespectful.

Your always gonna have the "fanboys" out there, I am just glad this site has none. :D

My theory shifted, is that when your opinion takes up that many words, you've stopped talking about the music and started talking about yourself. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything like that, to each his own bro. Go for it. :respect:

[shifted]

Isn't that an opinion though? Because it has to relate to you somehow, otherwise you would not be listening to it. :p

[Cacteur]

Lemme just throw you another curve ball seeing as I wont be in for a day or too.

You young pricks dunno shit about lyrics. I'll show you fucking lyrics....;)

Tangled Up In Blue


Early one mornin' the sun was shinin',
I was layin' in bed

Wond'rin' if she'd changed at all

If her hair was still red.

Her folks they said our lives together

Sure was gonna be rough

They never did like Mama's homemade dress

Papa's bankbook wasn't big enough.

And I was standin' on the side of the road

Rain fallin' on my shoes

Heading out for the East Coast

Lord knows I've paid some dues gettin' through,.......

Tangled up in blue.


She was married when we first met

Soon to be divorced

I helped her out of a jam, I guess,

But I used a little too much force.

We drove that car as far as we could

Abandoned it out West

Split up on a dark sad night

Both agreeing it was best.

She turned around to look at me

As I was walkin' away

I heard her say over my shoulder,

"We'll meet again someday on the avenue,"......

Tangled up in blue.


I had a job in the great north woods

Working as a cook for a spell

But I never did like it all that much

And one day the ax just fell.

So I drifted down to New Orleans

Where I happened to be employed

Workin' for a while on a fishin' boat

Right outside of Delacroix.

But all the while I was alone

The past was close behind,

I seen a lot of women

But she never escaped my mind, and I just grew,......

Tangled up in blue.


She was workin' in a topless place

And I stopped in for a beer,

I just kept lookin' at the side of her face

In the spotlight so clear.

And later on as the crowd thinned out

I's just about to do the same,

She was standing there in back of my chair

Said to me, "Don't I know your name?"

I muttered somethin' underneath my breath,

She studied the lines on my face.

I must admit I felt a little uneasy

When she bent down to tie the laces of my shoe,......

Tangled up in blue.


She lit a burner on the stove and offered me a pipe

"I thought you'd never say hello," she said

"You look like the silent type."

Then she opened up a book of poems

And handed it to me

Written by an Italian poet

From the thirteenth century.

And every one of them words rang true

And glowed like burnin' coal

Pourin' off of every page

Like it was written in my soul, from me to you,.....
Tangled up in blue.


I lived with them on Montague Street

In a basement down the stairs,

There was music in the cafes at night

And revolution in the air.

Then he started into dealing with slaves

And something inside of him died.

She had to sell everything she owned

And froze up inside.

And when finally the bottom fell out

I became withdrawn,

The only thing I knew how to do

Was to keep on keepin' on like a bird that flew,........
Tangled up in blue.


So now I'm goin' back again,

I got to get to her somehow.

All the people we used to know

They're an illusion to me now.

Some are mathematicians

Some are carpenter's wives.

Don't know how it all got started,

I don't know what they're doin' with their lives.

But me, I'm still on the road

Headin' for another joint

We always did feel the same,

We just saw it from a different point of view,......
Tangled up in blue.

Bob. Copyright ©1974 Ram's Horn Music.

Bob's still god.... aight! http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq122/Cacteur/Smilies/jason.gif

[shifted]

Who is Bob? lol

[mrstrange]

Nice Cacteur. :thumbsup:

Thats one of my favorite Bob Dylan songs.

Peace

[Kenshi]

cacteur, why do you think those lyrics is any better than lyrics to my liking? just curious to know what do you find about that song that is in particular so great that you posted it?

and i prefer shit with multies, if it doesnt have them it is rare i will listen to it. unless its rock, but hip hop there is nobody i listen to more then every once in a while who doesnt have multies. i write myself, so when i look at shit with no multies it just looks way to simple to write and i am immediately turned off. because writing a song, while being perfectly clear, and clever and such. is hard to do while constantly rhyming 3 syllables .

[Cacteur]

Geez Kenshi, lighten up bro... :(

cacteur, why do you think those lyrics is any better than lyrics to my liking? just curious to know what do you find about that song that is in particular so great that you posted it?

lÿ'ric a & n 1 a of or for the lyre, meant to be sung; of the nature of, expressed or fit to be expressed in song. lÿ'ric poem 2 Expressing writers own thoughts and sentiments briefly and in stanzas, writing in this manner,lyric words, words of song

To be honest kenshi, I posted it for a laugh, but your comment about being curious to know what I found so great about this song that I had to post it cracks me up even more. Are you kidding? :D

"Tangled Up in Blue" is a song by Bob Dylan. It appeared on his album Blood on the Tracks in 1975. Rolling Stone ranked it #68 on their list of the 500 Greatest Songs of All Time.

"Tangled Up in Blue" is one of the clearest examples of Dylan's attempts to write "multi-dimensional" songs which defied a fixed notion of time and space. Dylan was influenced by his recent study of painting and the Cubist school of artists, who sought to incorporate multiple perspectives within a single plane of view. In a 1978 interview Dylan explained this style of songwriting: "What's different about it is that there's a code in the lyrics, and there's also no sense of time. There's no respect for it. You've got yesterday, today and tomorrow all in the same room, and there's very little you can't imagine not happening."

The lyrics are at times opaque, but the song seems to be (like most of the songs on the album), the tale of a love that has, for the time being, ended, although not by choice; the last verse begins:

So now I'm goin' back again,
I got to get to her somehow...

and ends

We always did feel the same,
We just saw it from a different point of view,
Tangled up in blue.

Dylan continually re-worked the lyrics even after the album was released; the version on his live album Real Live has radically different lyrics. In live performances he has often sung some of the verses in the third person, as opposed to the first person point of view in the Blood on the Tracks version.
Ron Rosenbaum wrote in Slate[1] that Dylan had told him he wrote the song after spending a weekend immersed in Joni Mitchell's Blue.

Lets wait and see if people are writing things like this about Eminem's rhymes in thirty plus years time.

...and i prefer shit with multies, if it doesnt have them it is rare i will listen to it. unless its rock, but hip hop there is nobody i listen to more then every once in a while who doesnt have multies. i write myself, so when i look at shit with no multies it just looks way to simple to write and i am immediately turned off. because writing a song, while being perfectly clear, and clever and such. is hard to do while constantly rhyming 3 syllables .

... in fact, writing a song full of multies is basically impossible, which is why no one does it. Because there is no music attached to hardcore rap, I don't see it as lyrical at all. Rap is not so much about lyrics as it is about rhythmic poetry, pretty cool but not as clever as putting your rhymes together with a song.

I like Rap, and have done from Run DMC and Grandmaster Flash days, but this current trend of trying to jam as many rhymes in one line as you can, to hell with the meaning, to hell with the subtleties, just find as many rhymes as you can is starting to sound like what happened to the lead guitarist in the old guitar bands. It got to the point where tracks were twenty minutes long to accommodate the guitarist's wet dreams, and everyone forgot the reason we were all there in the first place. To party...

I predict this current trend of trying to out do each other to the point of counting how many bars you managed to jam into one track without any other consideration will kill Rap as surely as Jimmy Page and Ritchie Blackmore managed to kill guitar bands with twenty minute lead solos, and Marshall Mathers heads this trend.

That's just my opinion Kenshi, and I could be full of shit, so don't get so fucking precious man. I tell you something for nothing though, if I ever get this one eyed about some tin pot pop star.. shoot me!!! :giveup:

[mrnicksta]

kenshi, i think you're being a little too narrow minded in saying that it's all about the rhymes.. it's not all that difficult to rhyme a million syllables without any context or direction

cacteur, i think you're being a little too broad in saying that intricate rhyme patterns are killing rap. yes some people are just doing it for the sake of it. but then there are some people who write with more simplistic patterns and are killing rap.. a prominent part of hip hop has always been one-upmanship, and more intricate patterns than the next is just part of that ethos, and that includes showing how large your vocabulary is by being able to rhyme so many words so closely.

but the real point of it is that simplistic patterns, or complex, count for less than actual content of the song - whether it be a prevailing thought, narrative, concept or any combination of the above.

though i must say nothing impresses me more in hip hop than a cleverly thought out song delivered by an intricate verse full of complex rhyme patterns.

but then i like to have plenty of metaphor, similes, assonance and everything else too. they're all just poetic devices used for different effect

[Cacteur]

....cacteur, i think you're being a little too broad in saying that intricate rhyme patterns are killing rap.....

Not so much intricate mrnicksta, but jammed. You know? Trying to fit as many words, rhymes and signature rhythms into one track? It seems to be a natural progression for all street music. It starts with a new edge, or gimmick if you like. Then as the 'form' is popularised it struggles to maintain credibility until it finally out does itself and shoots itself in the foot.

Your comment about 'one-up-man-ship' is something Hip Hop doesn't have a monopoly on. Reference old rock band lead guitar breaks... To be really cool you don't over do it, right? That's why every testosterone soaked teenager isn't a music superstar. :invis:

[Kenshi]

and cacteur i wasnt getting my panties in a bunch its all good and dandy i dont want to sound cranky or anything your my boy cacteur! and i actually missed you havnt talked to you in a while. i was just askin why you thought that cuz i dont like to just say negative shit about what people like, i would rather fully understand first. and im not kidding maybe im missing something, i read thru it and i didnt notice any thing amazing. if you could PM me about the lyrics that would be cool cuz i might be missing or not understanding something in the lyrics.

mr nicksta, i dont think its ALL about the rhymes. i just dont want to listen to someone who doesnt use multies. but i also dont want to listen to someone who rhymes multies but doesnt say anything the whole time like mr.hyde or outerspace. i prefer 2 syllables and content over 4 syllables and sayin nothing. the reason multies are difficult because your trying to talk about something as you do them, they are easy when you dont make sense. also why MF doom is not one of my fav's. he would be if it was all about the multies.

well i think the real point of hip hop is self expression. i have much more respect for a self expressed artists who talks about what he wants and doesn't conform and uses no multies than a tool bitch with multies ( ex. lil wayne) i know what your talking about cacteur on the jammed, if you have ever listened to Mr. hyde he throws rhyming words in there and it makes no sense.

here is an example of what i LOVE to see. self expression with great penmanship

"soul mates are a myth/ theres more chance for a blizzard of identical snowflakes to exist/"

"were victims of circumstance/ its no coincidence were children of the worker ants/ and those in power, have never owned a pair of dirty pants/ but they're quick to kill your health insurance plans/"

[ET123]

nas is a much more insightful individual over eminem. i personally prefer eminems old stuff to listen to over nas. nas latest album wasnt all that, lyrically tho nas is getting stronger, talking about more and more stuff that is relivent to him, his community etc etc.

but you cant deny that this is gold:

I hang with a bunch of hippies
and wacky tobacco planters
Who swallow lit roaches
and light up like jack-o-lanterns
Outsiders baby, and we suing the courts
Cause we're dope as fuck and only get a 2 in the source
They never should've booted me out of reform school
Deformed fool,taking a shit in a warm pool
They threw me out the Ramada Inn
I said it wasn't me, I got a twin (Oh my god its you! Not again!)
It all started when my mother took my bike away
Cause I murdered my guinea pig and stuck him in the microwave
After that, It was straight to the 40 ouncers
Slappin teachers, and jacking off in front of my counselors
Class clown freshman, dressed like Les Nessman
Fuck the next lesson, I'll past the test guessing
And all the other kids said Eminem's a dishead,
He'll never last, the only class he'll pass is phys ed
May be true, till I told this bitch in gym class
That she was too fat to swim laps, she needed Slim Fast (Who Me?)
Yeah bitch you so big you walked into big Tanny's and stepped on Jenny Craig
She picked me up to snap me like a skinny twig
Put me in the headlock, then I thought of my guinea pig
I felt the evilness and started transforming (RARRRR!)
It began storming, I heard a bunch of cheering fans swarming
Grabbed that bitch by her hair
Drag her across the ground
And took her up to the highest diving board and tossed her down
Sorry coach, its too late to tell me stop
While I drop this bitch face down and watch her belly flop

i could have gone for any verse from that whole albun, but this one is like the screensaver for my brain. if im not thinking of anything, im normally got this floating around in there someplace.:badboy:
I first heard that song in like 8th grade and I was like holy shit this dude is gnarly.

[ET123]

I think this whole discussion is getting INTRANET HEATED! Lets all calm down a little bit and watch this super sick freestyle when Eminem was 19(+-1year). Eminem and his buddy Proof (in d12) were rolling out to go to some MTV show and on the way, they pulled over to the side of the road randmly and taped a sick freestyle. Going back to the topic, I think Eminem takes the cake in lyrics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-2kk6s1axk

[Cacteur]

and cacteur i wasnt getting my panties in a bunch its all good and dandy ...................... etc

No worries mate. :wave: We're cool.

I'm not really saying "Tangled Up In Blue" is better lyrically than any of Eminem's stuff, (although I'm sure tens of millions of people would say that.)

I was just trying to reinforce my idea that to try to argue weather or not certain lyrics, or certain artists lyrics are better than another's is totally futile. Sure, they may have more relevance to you personally, but that doesn't make them better.

I picked on "Tangled Up In Blue" because that would have to be the most overhyped piece of street poetry of all time. I had to write a ten thousand word essay on it for an English paper at University. It is regarded as one of Dylan's very best, with flash words like 'cubism' and 'deconstructivism' freely being tossed about.

I contend that the most important aspect of popular music/street poetry/rap/beat sound, whatever you want to call, is it's immediacy and contemporary credibility. Being the best is anathema to that if you ask me.

My favourite lyricist is definitely Leonard Cohen, and I would say Eminem's "Lose Yourself" is in my opinion totally awesome and one of the finest examples of the genre.... and he's being positive!
:thumbsup:

[mrnicksta]

kenshi and cacteur here's some lyrics for ya both :) from a song called "bottle dreams", by eyedea (of eyedea & abilities) under the pseudonym of oliver hart.

kenshi you will notice how simple the rhyme scheme is (which isn't common for eyedea!) and cacteur, you will notice how the lyrics are incredibly sad and well written for a rap song :)

i transcribed this myself, as i absolutely love this song and could never work out some of the lyrics so i listened and listened til i got it, and i think these are now 100% accurate (all the ones on the web are all slightly wrong!). enjoy!


everyone knew she was a special young girl,
from her neighbours to her teachers.
some labelled a prodigy, others called her a genius,
it was amazing the way that sher played the voilin,
it made it hard for people to believe she was only 10,
but behind every brilliant mind lies a monster -
and this one just so happened to be her father,
see daddy was sick,
he'd get a rush by playhing touchy touchy,
and telling her to keep it hush,
it was his secret way of love
and daddy needed someone he could to trust,
he bobbed her head up and said,
"if mammy was alive she'd be so proud of us".
so she'd hide her desire to die,
and if you paid close attention you could see the sorrow in her eyes.
walking around in the only real hell,
nobody would think she'd have such a story to tell,
afraid to go home, afarid to talk, afraid to cry,
she was too young to even know why.

CHORUS
and everyday she'd go to the river with a message in a bottle,
saying please god help me i don't wanna live to see tomorrow,
each day she'd strive for a tiny shred of hope,
just to wish the bottle would stay afloat.
but every single solitary day the bottle seems to sink,
i don't know why but the bottle always sinks,
she never sees it happen, but the bottle always sinks -
now only the bottom of the river knows whart she really thinks.

she made the violin sing with so much pain,
you could almost hear it scream through the string's vibrations,
what was once sweet and innocent is now rotten,
cos the psychotic father chose to probe the flowers of the pure and sacred,
her instrument was her only tongue to express the infinite abuse in it's depth.
at night the footsteps crept to her door,
and she began to shake and weep,
and with tears rolling down her cheek,
she'd pretend she was asleep.
and when the nightmare was over,
and the sun dawned it's light,
she'd reatreat to the same place she always did,
rip a page from her diary, and write with all the might,
and send it off in the current determined to find a way to live

CHORUS

being a victim of her daddy's hand for so long,
she'd lost the will to move on,
sick of picking up her violin to hide from what's wrong,
exhaused, but staying strong,
she tried to play the bright side
but couldn't bring herself to make nothing but sad songs.
sick of that sick feeling that stays in the stomach,
sick of waiting for rescue for someone who found her bottles,
sick of keeping daddy's little secret,
she got up at the crack of day and smashed her violin into pieces,
then proceeded to walk to the river with a plan.
only this time the diary bottle was in her hand,
just walked herself away from the hill,
not knowing at the river bottom lied all the cries for help,
it was weeks before they found her dead body -
some fishermen reeled her from the water like something from a detective novel,
diagnosis: suicide, stemmed from desperation,
cos near where she drowned they found about 500 messages in sunken bottles


man that song kills me!

listen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBL7u5xifmU

[kuul]

nas - more mature sound and also he can speak on any subject knowledgeably,
em - is more of a goofy word play flow

[JSthelefty]

what a cliche topic..

All you can really state is your opinion, seeing as how there's no true way to measure. I'd say these two guys can't really be compared. I haven't heard Nas rip multis like Em... But take "one mic" for example; that song speaks to any one who listens to music, it reaches a broader audience IMO. You really couldn't have picked 2 emcees with bigger bodies of work to compare..


If I had to lean one way, I'd say eminem.

[Kenshi]

if you say this is a cliche topic then any topic can be. and they were compared for a reason, not because they are similar. the only reason i picked them to be compared is because they are both in the mainstream and are both very good MC's and i think represent the real hip hop in a state where most of the radio is garbage.

[JSthelefty]

if you say this is a cliche topic then any topic can be. and they were compared for a reason, not because they are similar. the only reason i picked them to be compared is because they are both in the mainstream and are both very good MC's and i think represent the real hip hop in a state where most of the radio is garbage.

Cliche topic meaning; it's often brought up. Along with "name your top 10" threads. As for picking them for being mainstream, you definitely chose the best of them. You might want to understand that what WE think as mainstream has changed. Mainstream now is what ever the majority wants, always has been. & they want "waisted". They want kanye to make a duche out of him self on MTV.

Back when B.I.G. was writing machine gun funk, the radio was playing juicy.

[silasP]

^^word

[Kenshi]

yeah i see what your saying. how has what we think of mainstream changed? i always thought it was that what the majority wants. everybody wants the rap about money, girls and with club beats and dance moves.

and its the same now "we made you" by eminem on the radio but underground was chosen not to be a single, tupacs "how do yo u want it" a single and not "no more pain" what is on the radio is aiming for what everyone wants.

[JSthelefty]

how has what we think of mainstream changed?

Because the definition of mainstream is popularized. What was seen as a majority preference (what I know it as) has become an industry standard based on a preference that doesn't evolve based on what the listeners like. Instead, it's what the listeners choose from. At least that's how I see it, and I've already explained my opinion on that a month or so ago..


i always thought it was that what the majority wants. everybody wants the rap about money, girls and with club beats and dance moves.

You're right. But it hasn't evolved. It's devolved. Big daddy kane could have a come back as the dopest lyricist. All he needs is plies body and kali's beats.

and its the same now "we made you" by eminem on the radio but underground was chosen not to be a single, tupacs "how do yo u want it" a single and not "no more pain" what is on the radio is aiming for what everyone wants.

Those were actually producers choice. Based on sampling groups.. At least that's what I read. But it always comes down to what the producer picks. And the producer picks what he thinks will be most succesful publically. Again with the B.I.G. reference; P. diddy chose juicy, BIG didn't want to do it. but that's how it went down.




That's just how I see it. I'm not even sure what we're arguing about any more.. lol

[Cacteur]

Most of what starts out as underground eventually becomes mainstream, (and usually loses it's hardcore fanbase in the process.)

I like telling my experience with Jimi Hendrix in regard to so called underground music. Back in the day I was a complete Hendrix tragic. I bought everyone of his albums and played them almost constantly. I can't remember how many times I had my records smashed, or how many times I got thrown out of parties for playing that fucken weird hippy shit.

Now here we are forty years later, and every bastard fifty years and older regards Hendrix as an icon of our era. Pack o' lying fuckwits the lot of 'em. They've stolen my uniqueness. http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq122/Cacteur/Smilies/hendrixrn4-1.gif

[JSthelefty]

Most of what starts out as underground eventually becomes mainstream, (and usually loses it's hardcore fanbase in the process.)

I like telling my experience with Jimi Hendrix in regard to so called underground music. Back in the day I was a complete Hendrix tragic. I bought everyone of his albums and played them almost constantly. I can't remember how many times I had my records smashed, or how many times I got thrown out of parties for playing that fucken weird hippy shit.

Now here we are forty years later, and every bastard fifty years and older regards Hendrix as an icon of our era. Pack o' lying fuckwits the lot of 'em. They've stolen my uniqueness. http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq122/Cacteur/Smilies/hendrixrn4-1.gif

I can't say there's an exact person to fit that mold for this generation. B/c you're sorta right. Underground will eventually make it to mainstream or at the very least a broaded audiance. I almost feel that away about Eminem. He doesn't fit the mold (of what rap has been for the most part). He never had a single out that was focused on the usually selling points. But every rap fan/stan has an opinion on him. It almost takes away from the memories I have of listening to him. Almost.

[Kenshi]

"smack that" i would say focuses on the "usual" selling points

[Kenshi]

and the people do have a little choice to pick better music they just dont, you cant just blame everyone and not the people. souljah boy gets more radio play then nas.

[JSthelefty]

solja boy is the shit, quit hating. You know you a nerd..

[Kenshi]

well just like pinocchio your nose gon grow bitch! cuz u lyin!

[JSthelefty]

well just like pinocchio your nose gon grow bitch! cuz u lyin!

Giapetto begs to differ.

Cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuz

I have no strings so I have fun, I'm not tied up, to any one!

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/137521894/cheesburger_bigger.jpg

[mrnicksta]

funny how when i hear that line, i think of immortal technique not pinocchio :)

and as for the mainstream, most people are completely stupid and are quite content with being spoonfed whatever record executives tell them.


And now they say they wanna get me signed to the majors
If I switch up my politics and change my behavior
Try to tell me what to rhyme about over the beat
Bitch niggas that never spent a day in the street
But I repeat that nobody can hold my reigns
I put the truth on tracks nigga, simple and plain


if only every rapper respected that sentiment

[mrnicksta]

don't like to double post, but this discussion of the mainstream made me think of an interview with brother ali i read yday

http://rapreviews.com/interview/broali09.html

he's talking about the mainstream and how he respects it all, and doesn't bare a grudge for their success and him being so overlooked by the majority.

i agree with the point he makes, but what i hate/begrudge about it is that you never hear anything thats breaks that archetype on the radio/tv/whatever. the fact there isn't a choice in the real definition of the word, there is no real variety in the mainstream, people only get to choose from a small sub-set of all of hip hop and it doesn't do it good. shit i appreciate the odd gangster album, doggystyle is one of my fave albums of all time, but come on we need to see some people with something different to say in the mainstream.

and my hating of it doesn't even rest solely with hip hop! 99% of mainstream hip hop is about bitches, money, cars, guns, drugs (not necessarily in that order lol). and the rest of mainstream music is usually played out cliches about love or heartbreak. you never get a song with a poignant observation, or with deep lyrics or beautifully crafted words. and that's why it pisses me off!

*phew* rant over :lol:

[Kenshi]

^i know! i wanna hear something i can connect with. and i cant connect with having a ton of money or shooting guns and im not a fan of the love songs they are all the same to me

its more important for some people to make money then to speak whats on their mind i think its about having respect for yourself. if you respect your own mind you wont cross it in order to make someone else happy.there are a few out there that are different. such as lupe and asher even tho i think asher roth is wack i was happy to hear him just because it was a small breath of fresh air.

the Pinocchio shit was a reference , he said i was a nerd which was a gucci line, so i said a gucci line from the same song. we all love gucci gucci

thanks for the interview i read it, never have b4

[Cacteur]

I don't really have a problem with "mainstream". It's not for me but it doesn't really bug me.

It's just a manifestation of the music industry, and has very little to do with the kinds of creative music I love. The fact you have to look hard for the really good stuff makes it all the sweeter when you find it I reckon.

At the same time I try not to write off stuff simply because it is mainstream, although I do struggle with that. I remember discovering Alanis Morrisette about a year before she got popular. When her star suddenly exploded I found I just couldn't listen to her anymore. Sad but true.

I'm sure 'real' musicians are quite happy with the results of their creative efforts, and don't need the fame and money cheap, tacky, pop idols need to feel wanted.

;)

[mrnicksta]

The fact you have to look hard for the really good stuff makes it all the sweeter when you find it I reckon.

that's exactly how i feel! i love finding a rare gem in a sea of shit :D i take joy from discovering new music, and exploring a genre thoroughly

[shifted]

The radio stations here are commercial only, you will not find anything good unless it is a well renowned artist in Australia... I have never seen the stations here play Nas, they play Eminem's stuff though, but unfortunately its all the commercial shit only...

Oh, they also play Souja Boy, and that is about the time I turn my radio off, put on my favourite CD and listen to some classic raps...

[Kenshi]

yeah if i listen to the radio i have to listen to the rock station. i cant listen to this APPLE BOTTOM JEANS BOOTS WITH THE FUR shit. to me, i would much rather have respect then fame.

[Jop]

and my hating of it doesn't even rest solely with hip hop! 99% of mainstream hip hop is about bitches, money, cars, guns, drugs (not necessarily in that order lol). and the rest of mainstream music is usually played out cliches about love or heartbreak. you never get a song with a poignant observation, or with deep lyrics or beautifully crafted words. and that's why it pisses me off!



I don't think the subject matter is necessarily the problem. but how it's presented. Biggie, Wu-Tang, Tupac, and even Nas back in the day would talk about subjects like these, but what made them great was their ability to give it flair, style, an air of savagery creativity that left an impression.

So the real "problem" with mainstream Hip Hop is that it doesn't know what else to do now, or how to go about it. No one knows how to be successful on their own, so they decide to copy what others are doing. This in turn leads to that shit you might hear on that contraption you call a radio. No one knows what to do now, really. They saw their idols talk about what they talked, but since these new Hip Hop artists aren't exactly the brightest or peak of artistry thinking, everything's dumbed down to a point where having a youtube video can grant you success.

Of course, this all is going to sound like regurgitated stuff that people in this thread have already been saying, but I thought I like to throw in some things for discussion by saying that Hip Hop's "problem" isn't really the topic of the lyrics, but how it's all being packaged and shipped.

I also forgot to answer the question--I'm quite bias towards Nas, so....Nasty Nas wins it for me.

[Kenshi]

i dont think wu tang talks about fashion, girls bootys, chains, and nice cars to much. but biggie and 2pac i would say helped push mainstream in the direction it is in today

[xsocalx]

Isn't Eminem Obsessed with Mariah Carey?

[Jop]

i dont think wu tang talks about fashion, girls bootys, chains, and nice cars to much. but biggie and 2pac i would say helped push mainstream in the direction it is in today

Well, Wu-Tang was more on the grimy, street stuff, but what I meant was that the things, whether they're about material things or violence, being talked today are the same things back in the day.

[Jop]

Isn't Eminem Obsessed with Mariah Carey?

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9458/lolwutq.gif Que?

[shifted]

Isn't Eminem Obsessed with Mariah Carey?

Probably, but considering "The Warning" was actually his first decent track in a while, who cares? lol

When he is angry/passionate about a topic, he spits out great music. I wish he had the same passion for Hip-Hop in general but like he said himself in one of his songs, he has to find the flare again.

Relapse 2.0 better be decent.

[kenz]

i like some of the club, girly, material shit :(